Hello.
This is Noguchi from CASANOVA&CO.
Today, I’d like to talk about the "WONDER ROOM launch event," which will be held from this weekend.
This time, we asked Mr. Matsumoto, the designer of the WONDER ROOM team, Mr. Kakoi, who is in charge of fabric development, and Mr. Okamoto, who is in charge of sales, five questions and had them share their thoughts.
It turned out to be quite long, so we've divided it into two parts, but I think you'll get a better understanding of WONDER ROOM and the WONDER ROOM team.
We've also included look photos from this season's WONDER ROOM in between, so please take a look at them as well.
Now, here's the first part for today.
QUESTION 1
[About the encounters and relationships of the WONDER ROOM members]
Noguchi: Thank you for taking the time today. I heard that you all knew each other and had connections from before. How did you meet?
Kakoi: Well then, regarding each of our encounters, let's start with Matsumoto-san.
Matsumoto: Yes, Oka-chan and I met quite early, didn't we?
Okamoto: Yes, that's right.
Matsumoto: Oka-chan was working at a store where I used to go shopping, and...
Okamoto: That's right, I've known Matsumoto-san for about 10 years and we've talked before. I met Matsumoto-san when I was working at a select shop, which was my very first career.
At that time, we weren't close enough to have deep conversations, and there was an age gap, so I just thought, "He's a cool senior."
But then, after some time, we reconnected, and after various things, here we are now.
Matsumoto: I was in charge of imports at the brand store where I used to work. The designer always told me, "I hired you because you're not like our brand."
Noguchi: Oh, I see.
Matsumoto: And I was working in the store, but I was told not to wear that brand. (laughs)
Noguchi: That's quite something. (laughs)
Matsumoto: So, I'd wrap a GIORGIO BRATO leather shirt around my waist, wear a Harley Davidson T-shirt... and stand in that brand's store.
Noguchi: I see, I see.
Matsumoto: So, I liked that brand, but it was a career where I "wasn't allowed to wear it," so it was a career where I was excluded from the start as a new employee. (laughs)
At that time, I liked selling clothes by putting my own sensibility into it, so I liked going shopping, and of course, I liked clothes.
And as I went shopping at various stores, there weren't many people I remembered thinking, "This person is cool."
But one of them was Oka-chan. That was about 11 or 12 years ago.
Okamoto: That's right. I was a new employee, and the place I worked at was an agent for GIORGIO BRATO and STEPHAN SCHNEIDER from Belgium, as Matsumoto-san just mentioned.
My career started with a sales floor in Isetan, and that's where I met Matsumoto-san. We met several times on days off and in private.
Both of us had careers where we'd seen a lot of imported clothes, so that connects to now, and I feel like Matsumoto-san and I have a strong common language about "what's cool."
Noguchi: I see. So that's how it was.
Matsumoto: I was a sales clerk, so if someone attended to me, I'd want to buy something. So, I basically tried not to talk to sales clerks. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Noguchi: I understand that feeling. (laughs)
Okamoto: Back then, everyone really squeezed their budgets to buy clothes.
Matsumoto: It's strange, you know? It felt like we "just met." Even though I was trying not to talk.
But at that time, we were just talking about some things we knew, nothing serious.
But then, when Oka-chan had his next career, we had a proper opportunity to talk.
Okamoto: Yes. It became deeper after I left that store and changed jobs to a larger store, and then I lived in Hong Kong for three and a half years.
After those three and a half years in Hong Kong, I ended up working as a buyer, and there was a brand that Matsumoto-san was doing at the time.
From that time on, I loved and bought what Matsumoto-san was putting out.
Around that time, we started having drinks and talking, and then I went independent, and that's how this connection came about.
Noguchi: So, you had repeated opportunities to meet over more than 10 years.
Matsumoto: That's right.
And the way I met Kakoi-kun was through a mutual senior from Kumamoto, who introduced us.
Noguchi: Oh, are you from Kumamoto, Matsumoto-san?
Matsumoto: Yes, that's right. I heard from that senior in Kumamoto that "there's a guy making amazing fabrics."
If he's making amazing fabrics, it means he's an amazing person, right? (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Matsumoto: Well, when I actually touched the fabric, I instantly knew it was "amazing."
And at that time, we both talked about how it would be great if we could do something together with Kakoi-kun.
But I was working on another brand at the time, and I really agonized over whether to use his fabric for that brand.
So, I touched various fabrics and bought and wore clothes that actually used them, but I came to the conclusion that my brand at the time couldn't fully express the quality of the fabric.
That's why I thought, "To convey the quality of this fabric, I have no choice but to boldly launch a new brand."
And that's when I called Oka-chan.
Noguchi: So that's how you all connected. I see.
Kakoi: Matsumoto-san said from the very beginning, "Okamoto-san is the only one who can convey this." Even though I didn't know him. (laughs) He said, "It's already decided." (laughs)
Matsumoto: For WONDER ROOM, I pretty much forced Oka-chan to join, saying, "Oka-chan is the only one who can do sales for us."
Noguchi: Conversely, when you encountered Kakoi-san's fabrics and wanted to make clothes with them, did you already see how you needed to deliver them to the world?
Matsumoto: That's right, that's right. In order for me to bring Kakoi-kun's fabrics to the world and convey what I want to express, I first needed Oka-chan.
If the buyer has a strong relationship of trust with Oka-chan, they would probably understand the quality of Kakoi-kun's fabrics and grasp the "sensibility" as a Japanese person that I want to bring to the world.
But first, the salesperson needs to understand it, right?
Noguchi: Yes, that's right.
Matsumoto: I think there are many brands with "salespeople who don't understand."
Everything, including salespeople and buyers, is incredibly important, but having Oka-chan there is a huge factor in itself.
The fact that we could nurture this with Kakoi-kun, feeling "this can become a brand!", is significant.
So, for me, it was already decided that these three of us would do this when we started "WONDER ROOM."
Noguchi: So that's how it was.
Okamoto: Yeah, yeah.
Matsumoto: In this day and age, you can't just make things and expect them to sell without people to support them.
Noguchi: Yes, I truly agree with that.
Matsumoto: I love clothes and I've delved into their history, but I think the scope of what clothing brands need to do has broadened compared to the past.
That's why I think we're no longer able to make clothes as rich as before.
Noguchi: I see. Are you saying that there are too many things that need to be done, so they can't focus on it completely?
Matsumoto: Yes. So, as we embark on this journey to compete globally, it was natural to have people around us whom we could entrust with various roles.
It's similar to painting; if you ask if modern people can paint like Leonardo da Vinci, I don't think they can.
That's because they don't have enough time to immerse themselves. The length of time spent immersing oneself is completely different.
But even Leonardo da Vinci wouldn't have been able to draw in the same way if he had looked at Paleolithic cave paintings.
I think it's the same for Oka-chan, Kakoi-kun, and me, but we're no longer satisfied with anything less than something profound.
There's also the fact that we don't need to put out anything weak anymore.
So, we had to build a team that could maintain that strength.
To do that, it's also important to admit what I can't do, and I entrust those things to the two of them.
I've known Kakoi-kun for about two and a half years, but once you touch his fabrics, you pretty much know what kind of person he is.
Kakoi: For those two and a half years, we talked on the phone for about four hours every day. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Kakoi: But that's precisely why we talked about everything concerning each item we made, and we tried making many things.
But because of that, we dug too deep, and some things became a bit too hard to understand.
So, we could create, but when it came to how to present it, we realized the two of us couldn't do it alone.
Matsumoto: Seriously. (laughs)
Kakoi-kun and I can't be out front, can we? (laughs)
Kakoi: That's why we're doing this with the three of us.
But among us, there isn't much recognition of "who is in charge of fabrics and who is in charge of design."
It's a relationship where each of us crosses over to offer opinions and intervene.
Matsumoto: Within that, if there's a role only I can play, it's talking to the two of them about things other than clothes.
Kakoi: He'll endlessly talk about things like that story about Leonardo da Vinci. (laughs)
Matsumoto: I believe that if we only talk about clothes, no clothes will be born. I also don't think this is an era where you can make cool clothes by simply attaching cool fabrics to cool details.
So, my stance is that there must be an unknown, unprecedented sensation we haven't seen yet.
In other words, I believe that unless we talk about things other than clothes, good clothes won't be born.
By doing so, I want to foster the necessary sensibilities as a person living in the present.
I think that's my role among the three of us.
Matsumoto: For example, lately, I've been into not turning on the lights.
When I get home and it gets dark, I light a candle and start cooking from there.
The sensations that arise at that time are quite interesting.
Normally, you'd naturally turn on the lights to extend the time people can be active, but by not turning on the lights, the way your mind works changes.
And I feel potential in "what you perceive from that."
Noguchi: Oh, I see...
Matsumoto: I believe that unless we question the things we take for granted as "must-dos," new types of clothing with new sensibilities won't be born.
I have a certain amount of knowledge about clothes, and I think everyone else does too, but I share those new sensibilities, the humor, imagination, and abstract parts that cannot be visualized, with the two of them.
The work of connecting that using the power of Oka-chan and Kakoi-kun is necessary for WONDER ROOM.
It's a bit of a difficult topic, but...
Okamoto: To sum it up, I'm in sales, Kakoi-san creates the fabrics, and Matsumoto-san designs, that's the premise.
However, I believe WONDER ROOM is about creating things through deep communication that transcends our respective roles.
Okamoto: That story Matsumoto-san told earlier about the candles, he really does things like that. (laughs)
And if you ask if Kakoi-san and I would light candles after hearing that, no, we wouldn't. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Okamoto: But I think that relationship is good.
Matsumoto: No, it's really terrible. (laughs)
Kakoi: I turn on all the lights and wash a lot of fabric in the washing machine. (laughs)
It's the complete opposite kind of life, where I use a lot of electricity. (laughs)
Okamoto: But I think that's what it comes down to.
If everyone is looking in the same direction and doing the obvious, then that's all that will be created.
It might be good that everyone seems to be looking in a similar direction, but they're not.
QUESTION2
[About the appeal of the "knitting" world]
Noguchi: I'd like to move on to the next question.
In the world of clothing, woven fabrics are the majority, but what is the appeal of the "knitting" world that WONDER ROOM is trying to express?
Kakoi: Okay, I'll go first.
I believe that plain stitch and fleece, especially plain stitch, are what directly touch the skin the most.
And you wear them almost every day and wash them almost every day, right?
If that's the case, I think customers will truly like them after they've bought them, after they've washed and worn them many times.
And it's only when they feel that way that they'll think, "I'll buy this again."
It feels like that's how we gain comrades and friends.
So, to create such things, I first wanted to make something that I and my family would "always wear."
And the more I immersed myself in creating them, the more I encountered cotton and yarns that weren't flowing in the world, and various factories.
As I kept pushing forward, I gradually started to evaluate things not by the standard of "how is it as a product," but by the standard of "how is it as a fabric."
And when that happens, I realize that the various processes of sewing to tighten, and dyeing to damage it, in order to make it into a product, add negative elements to the quality of the fabric, making it weaker and weaker as it approaches being a finished product.
So, I realized that in order to maintain the best condition even when it becomes a product, I had to team up with someone.
Kakoi: But ultimately, I think the goal is how customers feel after wearing the clothes that have been created.
And the best part of plain stitch and fleece is being able to check the results closest to the customer's skin, and that's the most rewarding moment for me.
So, what I did with the yarn, or what I did with the fabric, is just part of the process.
Matsumoto: Well, in Kakoi's case, his relationship with the factories is also a big factor.
Nowadays, you can't just make good fabric by throwing money at it.
Including that, and including those people, I think they are all part of the WONDER ROOM team.
But it feels like you've reached those kinds of people, in Kakoi's case.
Kakoi: That's right.
At WONDER ROOM, we use two factories, and both of them have something that makes them say, "We won't lose to anyone in this regard."
Especially the factory that makes FRIEND, SHADOW, and WAFFLE, they work with high-end brands, so they earn enough and don't need to add new brands.
And they're not at all the kind of people who are trying to make money as a business, so they don't have to work with anyone they don't think is "interesting" or "gets it."
So, I went from Fukuoka to Wakayama for two weeks every month for about four years to study, and I think they were constantly watching to see if I was really enjoying it.
Noguchi: Two weeks every month for four years!?
Kakoi: That's right, that's right. I had a wife and kids, but I just left them and went.
At that time, I was also working on other brands, so I would do a pop-up somewhere else for two weeks, then go straight to Wakayama and stay for two weeks, so it was not uncommon for me not to go home for a month. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Matsumoto: It's because he does all this that he can make amazing fabrics, but at the time, my impression was that the fabric was so good that no brand could use it. (laughs)
And sure enough, Kakoi was like, "What should we do next, Matsumoto-san?"
Kakoi: Exactly, exactly. (laughs)
Matsumoto: There are times when something is too good. (laughs)
I thought it would be absolutely impossible to go and sell it to some brand and have them stock it.
Noguchi: You mean the fabric is too perfect?
Matsumoto: Yes. There are no flaws.
Because there are no flaws, I thought it would be better to have a brand that creates things that can release the energy coming from the fabric to the outside, rather than incorporating personal design elements into the fabric.
That's why, at first glance, my designs don't look very designed, but that's because I felt that the more details I added, the more the quality of the fabric would be obscured.
Moreover, the design that needs to be done for woven fabrics and plain stitch or fleece is completely different.
That's because the way they adapt to our living, moving human bodies is completely different from woven fabrics.
So the design that needs to be done is completely different.
Because it's such a high-quality fabric, we had no choice but to create something that could leave something, both materially and sensually, for people 50 or 100 years from now.
I want people 100 years from now to also be making things.
So I couldn't cut corners. Because if I cut corners, I don't think it would last 100 years. (laughs)
Noguchi: Yes. I see.
Matsumoto: The decisive factor, I believe, is the difference that comes from how much you can think of others when creating.
If you just make T-shirts, sweatshirts, and waffles normally, you just become a product brand.
So, it's not about that, but about how much you can care about people. I think this is quite important.
Okamoto: I feel like WONDER ROOM is the materialization of the sense that comes from Matsumoto's thoughts about Da Vinci, or not turning on the lights, and that kind of spirituality and various genres.
Kakoi: That's really true.
Okamoto: The difference between woven and "knitted" fabrics for me is that, as everyone says, they are indispensable, very familiar, and exist in core items like underwear and socks.
However, both myself and I think everyone else, the items that come to the forefront have overwhelmingly been woven fabrics.
But ever since I encountered Kakoi's fabric, I've come to think that compared to woven fabrics, knitted fabrics are something where the quality of the yarn can be felt more directly on the skin.
It's difficult to explain the difference between the world of warp and weft and knitted fabrics, and it's certainly not about which is easier or harder.
However, I believe that WONDER ROOM can elevate the world of "knitting" as something tied to daily life, creating a unique world of high quality.
That's all for today.
Tomorrow, you'll be able to see more about design and fabric development.
Please look forward to it.
I plan to display the WONDER ROOM lookbook at the event venue, so please look forward to that as well.