Hello.
This is Noguchi from CASANOVA&CO.
Today is the latter part, a continuation of yesterday's.
Here we go.
QUESTION 3
[About clothing design]
Noguchi: Earlier, you mentioned that the design is due to the "fabric being too strong." Could you tell us about the points you focused on regarding the design, patterns, and sewing of WONDER ROOM clothing?
Matsumoto: As I said earlier, we don't design clothes by just looking at the clothes themselves.
Among that, "fighting against time" has always been a keyword for me.
For example, even if modern people see what Yves Saint Laurent created, they might still think it's cool.
We have to create things like that.
Noguchi: Yes. Yes.
Matsumoto: Actually, the production of WHALE isn't stable. The old guy at the factory is "doing a good job" (in a quirky way).
In that case, we have to accept the fact that production isn't stable.
We have to find it interesting.
Noguchi: Oh, I see.
Matsumoto: Because without the skill of that craftsman, this fabric couldn't be made.
So there has to be a system that affirms this craftsman. For example, if I put this fabric into a brand I used to work for, it wouldn't work.
Because we wouldn't meet the deadline.
Noguchi: That's what it is.
Matsumoto: So, how do we design with fabric that's made with such dedication?
I think the subtle differences within simplicity are incredibly important.
Simply put, it's like "something worthy of remaining." That's the main essence of the design.
Noguchi: Yes. Yes.
Matsumoto: Adding design is very easy. Everyone wants to add more.
But how to be simple and beautiful is very important in WONDER ROOM.
I think WONDER ROOM's design appears at first glance to be undesigned, but it's actually incredibly designed.
There's nothing that's not calculated, is there, Kakoi-kun?
Kakoi: Even for a single stitch, we experimented to find what wouldn't interfere with the feel against the skin the most.
The image is that we simplified the specifications as much as possible to allow the fabric to live.
Matsumoto: Even for the side seam of the Sweat Slacks, we discussed with the pattern maker how the front and back should be balanced in terms of volume.
Kakoi: You contact Paris, right?
Matsumoto: That's right, that's right.
Noguchi: Oh, that's right. You mentioned at the exhibition that the pattern maker lives in Paris.
Matsumoto: He has a long career working under designers there, so he has a sensibility that Japanese pattern makers don't possess.
I think that pattern maker is good.
Noguchi: Oh, I see.
Matsumoto: Then, regarding the adjustment part after that, I primarily talk with Kakoi-kun.
Things like, "Let's go with this many millimeters here," or "I want it to look like this after 100 washes, Kakoi-kun, what do you think?"
I understand Kakoi-kun's long experience researching jersey and fleece, and while conveying my own sensibilities, we decide on each sewing specification one by one.
Kakoi: That's right.
Matsumoto: Regarding pattern volume, I think being cool is the first priority.
And then, not being affected by trends.
Basically, we make it to fit Japanese people, but it also fits foreigners in a different way.
In that sense, I think we've created a good margin.
Noguchi: I see.
Indeed, when you pick up WONDER ROOM clothes, the distinctive sleeve attachment and volume control are impressive, aren't they?
I hope you'll take the time to discuss these points in detail at the store.
Matsumoto: My explanation would be incredibly long, though. Would that be alright? (laughs)
Kakoi: Wouldn't everyone just leave because we talk too much? (laughs)
QUESTION 4
[About the fabric of each of the 4 series]
Noguchi: For its debut, WONDER ROOM is offering four series.
I'd like to hear about the thoughts and stories behind the fabrics used in each of these, from your perspective, Kakoi-san.
Kakoi: Yes. Well, first, "WHALE."
We use the No. 45 loopwheel knitting machine mentioned in the official description, which is, of course, an old machine.
However, whether there are older machines than this is debatable, and the possibility that someone else has the same machine is not zero.
This is the major premise.
Noguchi: Yes.
Kakoi: But what makes this No. 45 machine different is that it has been re-tuned specifically for our use, allowing us to pack the stitches as densely as possible.
The needles are also old, but they've been tinkered with and adjusted repeatedly, fixing the stitch density, gauge, and needle dropping speed.
So, it's absolutely impossible to knit any other gauge.
Noguchi: Oh, I see!
Kakoi: That's why, if you ask the craftsman who makes "WHALE" to "try making this kind of fabric a little more," it's impossible. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Matsumoto: No, it's really interesting! It's the best, isn't it? (laughs)
The world is moving towards efficiency using machines, but the more that person refines things, the slower it gets. (laughs)
That's why "WHALE" can only knit 30cm in an hour.
But that's that craftsman's philosophy and way of pursuing things, so it's the right way for him.
Kakoi: Factories that handle ordinary loopwheel knitting machines have requests from trading companies and such, so they have to be able to respond to things like, "We want the pitch to be a little different."
To put it badly, or to make it easier to understand, they set the machines to be "constantly in an incomplete state."
So they can respond to any request.
However, the craftsman making "WHALE" has adjusted it to the limit, so he can't revert it.
That's why he can create something like that, and confidently say that no one can imitate it.
However, they're still using the needles from back then, and there are only about 10 left in stock.
When needles on a loopwheel knitting machine break, it's usually around 8 at a time, so this will probably be the last batch.
Noguchi: What, 8 needles break at once?!
Kakoi: Yes, it's not a matter of one needle breaking and replacing it; if one breaks, it pulls and breaks in a chain reaction.
It's operating on such a fine line.
As I said earlier, he can only knit 30cm, and if a thread jumps or a needle comes loose and creates a slightly loose section, he's the kind of craftsman who will unravel it back to yarn, back to cotton, and re-knit it...
That's why he doesn't take on other work, and he can't. That's the kind of person he is.
Noguchi: Wow, that's amazing...
Kakoi: So, to summarize, the characteristics of "WHALE" are the gauge, inch, and the speed at which the needles drop.
The craftsman's skill is incorporated into it.
In his case, he deals with things that cannot be made without that skill, so he teaches the technique only to his son, passing it down through a single lineage.
Matsumoto: First of all, in all series, you've changed all the yarns for the front, middle, and back, right?
Kakoi: Yes. I've changed them.
Matsumoto: I think other brands generally use the same.
Kakoi: Typically, the front and back are the same, and a non-skewing yarn is inserted into the core.
Because it's generally said that the core yarn doesn't affect the front or back, everyone uses it, but I believe it's a lie to say it doesn't affect it when it's part of the composition.
Noguchi: I see, so it's because it's being used.
Kakoi: Exactly. So that's where I make them too.
...I've skipped a lot of explanation for "WHALE," but I could talk more. Is this enough? (laughs)
Noguchi: Thank you. I'm doing my best to keep up. (laughs)
Next, please tell me about "FRIEND" as well.
Kakoi: For "FRIEND," there are actually thick and thin versions, and this "FRIEND" is the thinner one.
Basically, thin fleece fabrics shrink, which has the disadvantage of unstable physical properties.
So, originally, I basically wanted to make it somewhat bulky.
Noguchi: Oh, I see.
Kakoi: However, when considering wearing it throughout the year, the thinner it is, the better.
But then again, if it's too thin, it's unstable, and that's where the struggle was.
"FRIEND" is the result of pursuing that balance.
Noguchi: I see, I see.
Kakoi: To pursue that, we started from blending the cotton, then spinning and twisting the yarn to create the fabric, and if it wasn't enough, we'd go back to the cotton blending stage.
If we encountered situations where tightening the stitches along the way wouldn't help, we'd then try making it into "two-ply yarn" or "three-ply yarn," and we did all those patterns.
We kept going back and forth like that for about two and a half years, so it finally feels complete.
So, the machine itself is special, but that's what took the most time.
Noguchi: I see.
Speaking of machines, for "FRIEND," you're using a jacquard knitting machine, aren't you?
I thought jacquard knitting machines were for creating patterns, but I've heard that for "FRIEND," you use it to control how the threads are skipped on the back.
Is this kind of jacquard usage common in the first place?
Kakoi: I suppose not, generally speaking. (laughs)
The machine that made "FRIEND" was originally designed for pattern creation.
While we were experimenting with "FRIEND," we managed to get the yarn spinning and twisting just right, and we thought it was good enough to make fabric. But then we realized it lacked a bit in strength and feel against the skin.
That's when a towel maker acquaintance of mine gave me an idea.
By referencing how towels are knitted and trying various things with a jacquard knitting machine, we realized that if we could control the way the yarn floats on the back, it would be a natural progression from there.
Noguchi: I see, so it was inspired by towels!
Next, please tell us about "SHADOW."
Kakoi: Originally, slub yarn was conceived with the idea that it was okay to have some imperfections by skipping some processes.
Noguchi: Is that so?
Kakoi: So, it's often made with cheap, uneven yarn. And since the process of making it neat is skipped, you get that unique texture and unevenness.
If you were to do the same thing with the highest quality cotton, you'd just get a regular, relatively nice yarn.
So, to create slub from good raw materials, we actually made our own unique machine at the spinning stage to create that uneven texture, and we produced slub yarn that we were satisfied with.
Noguchi: You actually made a machine! (laughs)
Kakoi: The reason slub is good is because its uneven texture prevents it from sticking to your skin when you sweat. It has a good release from the skin.
So, we wanted to be able to do that with the cotton we liked.
And by knitting it tightly, we're able to achieve a resilient, expressive, and plump texture.
Noguchi: I see.
How does the machine that creates the unevenness work?
Kakoi: ...I can't quite tell you that. (laughs)
My apologies. (laughs)
Noguchi: Is that so? (laughs)
But it means you're doing something quite special, right? (laughs)
Kakoi: Yes, that's right. (laughs)
Noguchi: Finally, please tell us about "WAFFLE."
Kakoi: "WAFFLE"... how should I put it?
I just love waffles so much. I do. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Kakoi: I love them so much that I've tried knitting them with almost every type of yarn, as long as it's 100% cotton.
Noguchi: What!? You mean with various types of raw cotton!?
Kakoi: Yes. (laughs)
And I've tried many different knitting methods.
As a result, I realized that the best way to give it strength and kickback is through the quality of the yarn itself.
Noguchi: Oh, I see.
Kakoi: For "WAFFLE" as well, the knitting machine we use was custom-made, but if you were really determined, you could probably make one in about a year.
However, what I think is absolutely impossible to imitate is giving the yarn quality its kickback, so that when the waffle stretches, it doesn't stretch out completely and returns to its original shape on your body.
We've repeated various tests in spinning and twisting, and "WAFFLE" is the result of us doing what we believe is "the best!".
Matsumoto: You don't know what you're talking about anymore, do you? (laughs)
Okamoto: So, it's like "eliminating all possibilities to pursue the ultimate," right?
Kakoi: Ah, yes, exactly!
So, because I wanted to make something comfortable, I tried everything, like using Suvin cotton and Sea Island cotton.
But while those were certainly comfortable, they didn't have the bounce back. They would just stretch out.
I tried Suvin cotton in many patterns, but in the end, the kickback didn't improve.
Then I tried knitting with firm cotton that would bounce back easily, but it was too rough. I thought, "If you wear and wash it, it'll end up like this anyway."
So there's no need to create that from the beginning, right?
That's how it was, just as Okamoto said, "crushing possibilities."
Matsumoto: Seriously, it's just laughable, isn't it? (laughs)
It's too much. (laughs)
And also, there's the fabric width, right?
Kakoi: That's right.
If the typical fabric width is 130cm, "WAFFLE" is only about 70cm.
Okamoto: That's incredibly narrow.
Kakoi: There's something called yardage, right? Normally, you can place the front and back horizontally.
Noguchi: Meaning with 130cm, you can place the front and back pieces side by side and cut them out.
Kakoi: Exactly. But "WAFFLE" is only 70cm, so just laying out the front piece already takes up all the space. (laughs)
So, you have to arrange them vertically: front, then back, then sleeve, then sleeve, which means the fabric cost is insanely high. (laughs)
Matsumoto: And on top of that, with that fabric width, they're cramming in an incredible amount of yarn, so the density is extremely high.
Noguchi: That's what it means.
Matsumoto: Because "WAFFLE" has that high density with its uneven, three-dimensional feel, it creates a very unique kind of waffle fabric.
Kakoi: We add "an extra step" to maximize that unevenness and fabric durability, but I can't really talk about that on a blog or anything. (laughs)
For those who are curious at the store, I'll be happy to tell them all about it!
QUESTION5
[What is the worldview that WONDER ROOM wants people to feel, and what is its vision for the future?]
Noguchi: Matsumoto-san spoke about design, and Kakoi-san about fabric. Finally, from the perspective of Okamoto-san, who handles sales, please tell us what you want people to feel through WONDER ROOM and the brand's vision for the future.
Okamoto: Yes. I'll keep it brief.
The brand name, WONDER ROOM, means "cabinet of curiosities," which you can find if you look it up on Wikipedia.
It's named after places where rare artifacts were collected in the past.
I've felt this way ever since Matsumoto-san first told me he wanted to create a brand called "WONDER ROOM": if it's "WONDER ROOM," it has to be "curiosities," and it has to be something valuable.
And precisely because it's a place where such things are collected and accumulated, new categories emerge.
I felt that this flow has somehow fallen perfectly into place during our two-hour conversation with the four of us.
Noguchi: Indeed, that's right.
Okamoto: Also, since this debut collection launched last December, we've received wonderful feedback from our retailers.
It's really gratifying to get reactions like "this is great" from people outside our team.
It's something that takes a lot of effort and time, and it's undoubtedly wonderful, but it's not meant to be difficult. We'd be happy if people could experience how it blends into their daily lives by wearing and washing it repeatedly.
Noguchi: Yes. That's really true.
I think WONDER ROOM is a brand that is strong, yet not difficult, and very gentle.
Okamoto: We've already decided that new series will be born for the next autumn/winter, and I imagine that these newly created items will accumulate, gradually becoming more and more of a "WONDER ROOM." And I'm honestly looking forward to that.
Every series, every product is poured into with full effort, so I don't think such things will ever fade.
That's why it's about the combination when various series are born.
In terms of not fading, the fabric of "WHALE" that appeared in this first collection won't be made again once the current stock is gone. But what kind of feeling will arise when you combine this initial "WHALE" with something that appears in the third or fourth collection?
I think it's great that such things become a conversation through their names.
I imagine that this kind of thing will eventually spread throughout the world.
So, including all of that, I keep saying it, but I'm really looking forward to it.
Noguchi: Yes, yes. WONDER ROOM is a Japanese product that can compete globally, I believe.
Okamoto: But at the core, it's something we all share: we want customers to feel "this is nice," or "this is comfortable," "this is cool." That's enough for us, even though we're doing something complex.
But since we're operating as a brand, we have to be cool, so we want to do things that only the three of us can do.
Noguchi: Yes.
Okamoto: So I'm really looking forward to this event at CASANOVA&CO.
Matsumoto: Seriously, I hope we, Noguchi-san, and all the customers can enjoy it together.
It's about enjoying a feeling that's hard to put into words.
And if I were to express that feeling in one word, it might be something like "comfortable."
If you have the "luxury" of it, I think you can genuinely enjoy just that.
And that "luxury" is created by the meticulous work of Kakoi-kun and myself, so it would make us incredibly happy if people could enjoy that aspect.
Kakoi: Mhm, mhm.
The fabric is already finished, so rather than trying to explain how amazing it is, I want people to feel it.
Things like twisting and knitting, we'll take care of all that on our end. (laughs)
Everyone: (laughs)
Matsumoto: It's enough for us to go through all the trouble. (laughs)
Kakoi: So I want people to clear their minds and just feel it!
Noguchi: There are customers who are looking forward to talking with everyone, so we would be very happy if you could share various stories directly with them.
Thank you for your long time!
That concludes it.
We would be very happy if you could imagine WONDER ROOM a little, then see and wear our products, and then check those feelings against what you experienced.
We look forward to your visit starting this Saturday, the 18th.